whootah.com

PRT feasibility study - http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itran ... ystudy.pdf

New Jersey PRT study - http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itran ... report.pdf

Studies such as these point to systems operating in areas a damn site larger than Raleigh/Durham. This reality is only limited by political will and raised awareness over old technologies.

whootah. It's like the Jetsons!

Good studies. I actually went out and read these, and a number of others, just after our last conversation about this.

I still don't understand how either of these studies shows that PRT could be a complete transit solution for the entire Triangle area. The main discussion in every study and conversation I've seen regarding PRT is PRT as a replacement for taxis, buses, cars, and light rail. Intra, not inter, city transport. I'm all for this. I hope someone can implement it in a city, and maybe this area is a future candidate. It has been discussed in the committees, panels, and forums surrounding the proposed transit plan.

I see PRT as a compliment to heavy line mass transit. A number of PRT experts have said just that. NC State has long discussed a monorail linking Centennial Campus to Main Campus. PRT would be a perfect solution for this. Link up NC State, downtown Raleigh, North Hills, Crabtree, and other beltline areas; it could be great. But, outside of that I think you need the hub and spoke. Direct rail lines connecting Chapel Hill, Durham, Raleigh, Cary, Wake Forest, and RTP. The RTP area would be another perfect candidate for a PRT grid. This is how the existing PRT systems (Morgantown, Heathrow) will work.

To propose a PRT grid covering the entire Triangle area would be insane. And that's not even taking into account the fact that no sizable commercial application of it has been attempted yet. A mid-size city needs to install and pefect PRT before we start thinking about linking up the entire country with these little pods. But, that aside, PRT as a total transit solution doesn't address one of the biggest problems facing our area, a problem that the STAC 2035 Triangle Regional Transit Vision addresses: Urban sprawl. The Triangle is consistently rated one of the top 5 worst cases of urban sprawl in America, and with both Cary and Raleigh being two of the fastest growing cities in America, we're moving towards an Atlanta scale disaster. Fixed guideway hub and spoke systems control sprawl and encourage growth in a controlled and defined manner; history has shown this in every case. Even Charlotte's new rail line has resulted in an instant explosion of growth and dollars in that corridor. In fact, CAT is referenced constantly these days as a tremendous success in rail implementation and city bus circulators (which is actually the bigger, although far less publicized, component).

PRT is a good concept; like most well thought out concepts, it can be proven feasible on paper. If it can truly work is another matter. I hope it can, and it looks promising, but it's going to be a slow growth. The slow and careful progression of the tiny Heathrow project just goes to show how absurd it would be to try and implement this now on a mass thousands of miles scale. If the current prototypes of PRT prove to be a success, I am sure it will be adopted on a larger scale in small and mid-size cities; similar to the Morgantown concept, I would think, except implemented much better. I'm not sure it will be the United States that leads the way, although higher gas prices seem to be reversing certain mindsets. As I said, I think maybe a Raleigh/NC State area prototype would be a project that could get off the ground here in a very educated and in fact liberal area; I would support it. The STA transit vision in fact leaves room for that. But, we need action NOW, and this gets bus circulators in motion within the next few years (perhaps long term these could be replaced by PRT), and sets in motion the work to get trains rolling to connect the major urban centers. I hope it comes to vote in November, but doubt it will because someone will inevitably hold it up. Highway and automotive lobbyists are powerful people. But, I'll vote for it, and I'll gladly pay the half cent sales tax. If they want to double it to a full cent and build this thing twice as fast, that's fine with me as well.

I wish that America could somehow get mass transit like Europe does.

I know that in Europe it's just kinda a part of the culture because it's been there for decades, but it just makes no sense that a city the size of Charlotte is so far behind on this stuff.

I know Charlotte exploded faster than they expected, but when 485 was started, they should have seen how fast the city was growing then and started planning these things.

It's like how they did the light rail. The Charlotte Trolley (which is running again by the way) ran 2 miles, from Atherton Mills to 7th Street.

Then they got the light rail approved. So what did they do? They came in and ripped out all the stations except for one.

That's a ton of money they blew for maybe 2 years of the trolley running by itself. They just need to plan things better, but at a faster pace I guess as well.

They have gotten prelimary approval from the FTA (this week in fact) for getting the Lynx blue line extended up to the north side. but that will take at best probably 7 more years to see happen.

Europe was built in the era of the train.
The United States was built in the era of the car.

Now we are beginning to see the problems with this. Since you probably have no idea where this thread came from, a brief background:

I'm very interested in urbanism, and specifically mass transit. I've been following efforts to pass a long term transit vision plan in the Triangle for some time. A recent plan proposed in May seems likely to pass in my opinion, with both long-term and short-term plans that will ultimately involve 56 miles of regional rail as well as bus circulators and other things. Alan sees any sort of rail as ancient technology that no longer has any place in transit planning, and is all about PRT, and the mindset that anything cars, rail, and bus can do, PRT can do better and cheaper. I'm not against PRT, but I do think its supporters have let their imaginations run away with them a bit, and I certainly think rail is far from an outdated technology.

On another note, I'm riding the bus to work on Monday. If it works out, I could end up saving over $1,000 in a year.

Jonathan wrote:Europe was built in the era of the train.
The United States was built in the era of the car.

Now we are beginning to see the problems with this. Since you probably have no idea where this thread came from, a brief background:

I'm very interested in urbanism, and specifically mass transit. I've been following efforts to pass a long term transit vision plan in the Triangle for some time. A recent plan proposed in May seems likely to pass in my opinion, with both long-term and short-term plans that will ultimately involve 56 miles of regional rail as well as bus circulators and other things. Alan sees any sort of rail as ancient technology that no longer has any place in transit planning, and is all about PRT, and the mindset that anything cars, rail, and bus can do, PRT can do better and cheaper. I'm not against PRT, but I do think its supporters have let their imaginations run away with them a bit, and I certainly think rail is far from an outdated technology.

On another note, I'm riding the bus to work on Monday. If it works out, I could end up saving over $1,000 in a year.

Your statement above is not completely accurate. I have never said that PRT is the ONLY "rail" solution that is better. Technically, PRT runs on a "rail".

Actually, my opinion is that newer transportation technologies, such as high speed maglev trains for example, are far superior to traditional light rail systems and in effect, render that technology outdated by definition.

Yeah, but maglev trains and light rail serve two completely different purposes. You wouldn't invest in a high speed train for regional commuter rail. That said, a high speed rail line from Charlotte to Raleigh to Washington DC (and then maybe to New York) is in the works for the near future.

Jonathan wrote:Yeah, but maglev trains and light rail serve two completely different purposes. You wouldn't invest in a high speed train for regional commuter rail. That said, a high speed rail line from Charlotte to Raleigh to Washington DC (and then maybe to New York) is in the works for the near future.

That is what I've been hoping for, for a while. AMTRAK is just ridiculous the amount of time it takes to get anywhere on their system.

They need mass transit that is more appealing than actually driving somewhere.

And thanks for the explanation Jonathan. I'm actually a republican that is sold on mass transit, it's usually one of those things where only democrats (it seems to me) are the ones that will back things like this.

I've been riding the express bus from Mint Hill for about 9 or 10 years now. No telling how many thousands of dollars I've saved between gas/parking/wear on my car.

I still don't get why cities do stupid things though like Atlanta. The MARTA line ends one exit away from Six Flags. Why? They should extend the thing there and thus provide rail service to the park!

Jonathan, so how goes the bus ride to work?

Pretty great. Takes about 35 minutes usually to get there in the mornings (whereas it would take probably 20-30 driving), then I just have to walk up the driveway to the building. 40-50 minutes in the afternoons (probably 30-40 minutes driving). I can sit back and listen to music, read, sleep, or whatever. I'm trying to do it as much as possible.

Jonathan wrote:Pretty great. Takes about 35 minutes usually to get there in the mornings (whereas it would take probably 20-30 driving), then I just have to walk up the driveway to the building. 40-50 minutes in the afternoons (probably 30-40 minutes driving). I can sit back and listen to music, read, sleep, or whatever. I'm trying to do it as much as possible.

That's pretty much my commute by bus as well. The bus lane is nice too, especially on days when there are wrecks on Indepedence.

I'm so used to it, that I can sleep all the way downtown and usually wake up the exact same spot every day.

Our buses are very packed these days. Some buses are so full, some people are having to stand now.

High speed line discussion http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?secti ... id=6305905

Since I've been to DC a few times now and rode the metro myself I can share that going by car from one end of dc to the other according to google map is about half an hour.
Driving directions to Capital Beltway/I-495 N/I-95 N
26.2 mi – about 32 mins (up to 45 mins in traffic)

going the same distance by the metro takes 1 hour.
I've ridden this route on a monday morning when everyones going to work during rush hour. The cars are packed, everyones reading the washington post 'express' edition that are handing to each willing passanger as they enter the metro station. Theres about 25 stops from beginning to end and the whole thing takes 1 hour.

my point?

i dunno

hmmm

i've rode the metro

k later

kthx

bai